Yesterday's NY Times ran a piece on a Nigerian writer who was told that women in the US are not taken seriously if they are well dressed. She was brought up to be well dressed, well accessorized and to be perfectly groomed at all times. That's the norm in her country for women regardless of status or wealth or employment. Her mother would never dream of going to work or out unless perfectly put together. When she came to the US to attend college she found out that an outfit she considered casual was 'too dressy' which was pointed out to her by friends. We're talking about heels, pants and nice top. Kind of what I consider a good everyday outfit, usually minus the heels.
As an aspiring writer she attended a writing conference. The woman next to her remarked that one of the speakers, a woman who had published 3 books, couldn't be taken seriously because she was fashionably dressed. Weren't the 3 books enough to give her serious credentials?
A woman on PR posed the question of whether it's ok to be interested in fashion. It kept her from sewing because she didn't want to be taken as too self involved, which is what I think she thought of women who like fashion. She is seriously conflicted about this!
I love fashion, though probably not as much as some. I don't have the lifestyle to wear a lot of what's considered high fashion, but I search out the casual and fashionable and try and interpret the look to suit my body. I believe that there is nothing wrong with dressing well and fashionably or in loving fashion.
I am old enough to remember Bella Abzug and her hats. She was a serious politician who was not taken seriously and a lot of men made fun of her hats. How about Michelle Obama? Do we not take her seriously because she wears fashionable clothing? She'd been dressing interestingly long before she became First Lady and she held some serious jobs. Hillary Clinton and her pants suits. People talked about them and not in a good way. So, basically women can't win. If you love fashion you are shallow, dress boringly and you are criticized for that too.
In a lot of ways, though women have come a long way since we got the vote, we are still struggling to be taken seriously.
What's your take on women and fashion?
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T LOunge for December 16th 2024
1 hour ago
Good topic! I think dressing fashionably is a good way of showing attention to detail and "with the times", the second of which is IMO especially important now for older women in the business world. The key is to stick to pieces that make sense and are appropriate for your position and environment. Brightly colored skinny jeans might work if you are a graphic designer but I think they give a bad impression if you work as an auditor in a multinational accounting firm. I also think how you wear the outfit, especially fit, is a huge factor. It is painful to watch some of the local female news anchors on TV because they wear clothes that are fashionable but too tight or show too much skin. It isn't the clothes, it is the fact that they are seemingly unaware (or don't care) that they need to go up a size or add a cami that makes me not take them seriously.
ReplyDeleteHere in NY I find that the women who do the weather are the worst offenders. The anchors tend to do a much better job. But, the thing is why do we feel the need to dissect what they wear?
DeleteThere were a few morning weather girls in San Diego who we joke about looking like they took the "walk of shame" straight to the studio. They don't come across as very professional on the air, though, either. I'm not sure that we'd pick apart their clothing if they didn't giggle, etc, on air--it's all perpetuating a stereotype. And no, I don't think it's a sexism thing, because we'll make cracks about fake-tanned "mimbo" on-air personalities as well.
DeleteI found the article (Vogue ran it as well) about Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie truly thought provoking and much of it resonated with me as well. I love fashion and everything about it. I cannot function unless I am put together. Dressing well puts me in a positive mental state and it can have positive effects on those around us. Last year, when my father was transitioning, I didn't realize my clothing had gotten somber until the day I wore a bright top and floral skirt. A co-worker commented that I looked peaceful and calm considering the circumstances (my father was resting in peace by then). I told him it's what my father would do; continue to enjoy life in every possible way. Right down to the way I dressed. I am the only female in my branch of an environmental construction firm. At this stage in my life, I'd say a fashionably, well dressed woman can be taken seriously. Usually the ones who have the disparaging remarks to make are those who haven't bothered to put themselves together. We know even jeans and a t-shirt can look chic. Or the men who have confidence issues. And I do agree, that it does come down to fit and what is appropriate for the situation.
ReplyDeleteI think we should worry less about what other people say. You can't please em all anyway so just forget about it.
ReplyDeleteI did not get to read the article, but it sounds like something was lost in translation. I am asuming the woman spoke english, but being from a different country she didn't catch all of the American cultural nuances about what was being said. There are two or three topics being blended together. When I was 20 I worked in a call center providing tech support, and many people dressed causually, and a few dressed up. It can appear that you are trying to 'be something that you are not' to some, and 'dressing for the job you want' to others. I wish I knew the age of the woman, or even better, a photo of the outfit she was wearing. Another nuance could be the cut and fit of what she was wearing. Finally there is a time and a place for everything. When in Rome....
ReplyDeleteYes, we've come a long way and I felt very conscious about that fact for a long time, being the first woman in my family that had a higher education and went to university, My mother still had to give up her job when she married (1960!). I don't think the struggle has much to do with fashion, some are more conscious than others and the style of womens clothes can be so divers too. For my work I meet a lot of different type of people,from the corporate communication department through IT or the designers. Dressing varie so much and I think it's more about how confident you are with what you do that you are respected and valued, whatever the rank in the organization. I like to dress well for business meetings and are more casual at home. I'm more irritated by the way a woman in a higher position is always asked how she can combine the job with the care family/children. I've seen that so often in interviews with influential women here in the Netherlands. Or is this only here? A man in the same position is never asked how he manages to combine is job with his family. We've had a few men in politics resigning from their function saying they wanted "more time for the family". Het gets praise for it. When a woman does the same she will be found weak. So strange.
ReplyDeleteIt's a cultural difference -- I think, in most other developed parts of the world, a woman is expected to always be groomed and presentable. Regardless of her station, she shows respect for herself and all she represents, by showing a good appearance. And Nigerians are P-R-O-U-D people, even when we grow up in other countries (ask me how I know!).
ReplyDeleteHere in the US, though, we play faux-humble by dressing anywhere from casually to sloppy, but show off by having things like just-released electronics, Lululemon workout leggings, fancy gym memberships, and thin bodies. It's just a cultural difference.
Me personally, I'm trying to stop being such a lazy bum when it comes to appearance, and I don't really care who thinks I'm shallow or vain because of it. Fact is, Americans judge judge judge on appearance anyway! You're fat? People think they know you. You're super skinny? Same deal. You're a white guy dating an Asian woman? Same deal. It's crazy!
I think about sewing, clothing, style (more than fashion) and how to flatter my awkward bodyshape quite a bit. I am not sure even with that the end results are as good as I would like, but I definitely like to be practical and appropriate. I changed jobs a few months ago and have had to up my work wardrobe a notch to ensure I am dressing to an equivalent level to my male counter parts. It definitely works. However I don't talk to people generally about sewing/clothes etc as I think it would be considered shallow and frivolous. I do discuss such things with one friend and my mum, but they are both sewers and so get it.
ReplyDeleteI would have thought it the other way around - not being taken seriously if you are not well groomed. Perhaps some of this has been lost in translation? Not taken seriously if too fashion forward? Rather than well dressed? In Australia some areas people are very casual and in others more well put together. I get to dress up every day as I work in a professional office - but mind you some of the ladies have more breast showing that my daughter at the night club!! Just don't know where to look! Even on weekends I wouldn't go out without makeup and a nice (casual) outfit.
ReplyDeleteI agree that women just can't win. If you dress fashionably and feel that you aren't being taken seriously and try dressing down - I suspect you will get less respect, not more. I also think that young people can get away with being unkempt a lot more than older people can. Young people who don't "try" can still look very lovely and may feel contempt for people who put a lot of effort into their appearance. But once you get older and put on a few pounds if you don't put some effort into your hair and clothes you look more "homeless" than "bohemian chic".
ReplyDeleteInteresting subject, Nancy! I think snarking at others' appearance has become a common pastime. And not a good one! Somehow if you can find fault with someone else it might make you feel better about yourself? I don't think so. It's just mean. If we ever want equality we should be supporting women in power positions not dragging them down. It should be about their substance not their looks. Yeah, preaching to the choir, I know!
ReplyDeletePersonally, never having worked in the corporate world I tend to be pretty forgiving of anybody's mode of dress, whatever that may be. As long as certain parts are appropriately covered, so what? I don't like anyone dictating my clothes either! However I do appreciate those who go for fun, funky, stylish or elegant and stand out from the t-shirt and jeans crowd. Isn't taking some care in your appearance supposed to be a positive thing?
Does any one still have a link to this article? I would love to read it. I do think this is a cultural difference. This post made me think of several cultures wear it is important to dress polished. America is several regards seems to be laid back about fashion is some places.
ReplyDeleteIf you have traveled outside the US you quickly realize that Americans present a pretty sloppy picture, at least that's been my experience. You can pick them out of a foreign crowd in a heartbeat.
ReplyDeleteAs far as being fashionable equated with not being taken seriously, that's hoohaw IMO. You can be dressed in a totally appropriate outfit for your position but if stupidity and fluff is all that comes out of your mouth, what does it matter?